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The WOF vs. Scripture Challenge...
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Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Aaron Scott: The WOF vs. Scripture Challenge...

Now, I don't consider myself a WOFer, since, even though I know of WOF ministers, I have not heard more than a handful of sermons. What I believe (rightly or wrongly), I came to myself, for the most part.But here's the challenge: Present a STANDARD (not some extreme position, please) WOF position, and show why it is DEAD WRONG.I would almost wager that you can't do that. Now, you and I may agree that it's wrong, but I doubt we can prove that it is DEAD WRONG (i.e., without any scriptural support or unreasonable scriptural support). Fair enough? Let's hash it out in love and gentleness. If I'm wrong, I'll be the better for you showing me. But I just have not seen absolutely compelling evidence that some of these positions are clearly wrong (even if I don't agree with their take on it). Why? Because as with most of the Christian denominations, every one of them can make a good (or at least decent) scriptural case for what they believe. That doesn't mean they are right, but it does mean that we don't get to act like there is no reason in the world to believe it.

Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Old Time Country Preacher: Challenge

WOF theology posits that: First, that Christ was re-created on the cross from a sinless deity to a Satanic being. Second, that redemption was secured not on the cross but in hell. Third, that Jesus was reborn (or born again) in hell. And finally, that Christ was reincarnated through His rebirth in hell and that those who are born again are likewise “reincarnated.”I. Re-Creation on the CrossKenneth Hagin writes that spiritual death means something more than separation from God. Spiritual death also means having Satan’s nature.A. Destructive AssertionBefore examining the destructive notion that Christ was re-created on thecross, let me offer a definition of atonement. Simply put, the atonement means that Jesus Christ, by His sacrificial death upon the cross, dealt completely with the problem of sin. The Cross stands at the center of history, so our understanding of the atonement is central to the faith. Virtually every cult denies the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through the sinless sacrifice of Christ upon the cross. The Bible clearly states that one’s eternal salvation rests on what one personally believes about the blood atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross. Kenneth Copeland writes that in a conversation with Jesus, he was told that Jesus became a sign of Satan when He hung upon the cross. “Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? And the Lord said, “Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.” How does such a claim align with Scripture? It doesn’t. In the Old Testament, whenever anyone committed an offense or sin, a sacrifice called a sin offering was required in order to “cover” the transgression. The offering had to be “without defect” (Leviticus 4:3).Flawed animals were deemed unacceptable for sacrifice (Deut. 15:21). Since such sacrifices foreshadow Christ’s ultimate sacrifice on the cross, we know that Christ was offered without spot or blemish, and as such, could not have become one in nature with Satan. 1 Peter 1:19speaks of, “the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.” B. Distorting the TextFaith teachers distort the text to support their pet theories. II Corinthians 5:21 is a case in point, where Paul writes, “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us.” Here they argue that Jesus became a satanic being on thecross. But is this really what the apostle had in mind? No!To interpret this passage as saying that Christ was transformed into sin is to strip the Savior of His personal being and reduce Him to a mere abstraction.The Levitical concepts of imputation and substitution are the backdrop for Paul’s statement in 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus did not literally become sin or a sinner, the sin of humankind was imputed to him.God made Him sin, not in the sense of being a personal sinner, but the Father made His innocent Son the object of His wrath and judgment, for our sakes. Through Christ on the cross the sin of the world is judged andtaken away. Faith adherents also cite Numbers 2l:8-9 and John 3:14to prove that Jesus became a sinner on the cross. Since Jesus was “lifted up” on the cross as Moses “lifted up” the bronze serpent in the desert, He have taken on the nature of Satan, symbolized by the serpent.However, these verses address the manner in which he died, that he was lifted up on an instrument of death. It is clear that Christ’s re-creation on the cross has no scriptural basis.C. Describing the QuestionsNumerous passages affirm that our sins were dealt with “through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:10; cf. Romans 7:4; Colossians 1:22; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18; 4:1). This raises three questions for the Faith movement’s view of the atonement.First, why is there no explicit mention of Christ’s “spiritual” death—whilethe Bible is replete with details of the fact and significance of His physicaldeath—if it was His spiritual death that did away with the curse?Second, why does the Bible place so much emphasis on Christ’s physicaldeath on the cross—to the exclusion of His alleged spiritual death—if His physical death was not the factor that eradicated sin?Third, why is it that Christ Himself told us to remember the sacrifice Hemade with His body and blood (both of which are essentially physical), whilesaying nothing about any spiritual sacrifice (cf. Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians1 1:24-26)?The answer is simple, the biblical evidence indicates that Jesus did not die spiritually in the faith sense. Rather, His physical death paid the price for humanity’s sin. Jesus said, “This is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me. (1 Corinthians 11:24-26)It was on the cross that we were pardoned through Christ’s broken body and shed blood—not through some mythological spiritual death.The error that Christ became a sinner upon the cross inevitably leads to thefurther error that His torment upon Calvary’s cross was insufficient to atone for the sins of humankind. II. Redemption in HellFred Price, “Do you think that the punishment tor our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separatedfrom God . . . Satan and all the demons of hell…dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence.A. Inadequacy of the CrossIn historical orthodox theology the end of the atonement took place upon the cross. In faith theology the cross was only the beginning.Joyce Meyer is emphatic in saying: “You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.”Joel Osteen states that in hell “the two most powerful forces in the universe have come together to do battle for the first time in history. For three days Jesus fought with the enemy. It was the battle of the ages.”Yet, it was on the cross that Jesus said, “Father into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46; cf. John 19:30).Kenneth Copeland is likewise emphatic: “When Jesus cried, ‘lt is finished!’ He was not speaking of the plan of redemption.” Paul Billheimer in his book Destined for the Throne, “In hell Jesus was at Satan’s mercy. [l]t was not sufficient for Christ to offer up only His physical life on the cross. His pure human spirit had to “descend” into hell…Satan and the hosts of hell ruled over Him as over any lost sinner.”B. Twisting of TextsTwo passages in particular are used to support the idea of redemption in hell. First, in Matthew 12:40, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Matthew 12:40). Jesus is clearly alluding to His burial in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. There is not even a hint in the context that Jesus would experience three days and three nights of mortal combat with the forces of darkness.Second, in Ephesians 4:9-10, “What does ‘he ascended’ mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.” Far from demonstrating that our Lord was incarcerated in hell, this passage references Christ’s incarnation on earth. Paul writes in Colossians 2:15that Jesus “disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.” Yet, Joyce Meyer declares that Jesus “was in the grave three days. During that time, He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go because of our sin. He paid the price there.”The problem is that it was on the cross that Jesus said, “It is finished.” It literally means “It is paid; the debt has been paid in full.”III. Rebirth in HellCreflo Dollar writes, “Often, in the midst of our religious views of Jesus, we forget that He was actually the first person to ever become born again.”According to Charles Capps, it was this pivotal event of Jesus becoming born again…The Church started when Jesus was born again in the gates of hell.”A. Doctrinal PerversionThe idea of a born-again Jesus is foreign to “the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.” l Peter 3:18 states that Jesus “Was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.” This is hardly a commentary on Christ’s spiritual rebirth. In fact, the verse highlights the reality that Christ’s sacrifice was physical, without the slightest reference to spiritual death. Christ’s body was left hanging on the cross the moment he surrendered his spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46). In other words, it was the parting of His spirit that marked Jesus’ “death in the body.” B. Revelation KnowledgeSince there is no scriptural support for the redemption in hell position, Faith teachers appeal to revelation knowledge. Benny Hinn states, “if Jesus was not reborn spiritually, we ourselves have no hope of being born again: The Holy Ghost is just showing me some stuff. I’m getting dizzy! I’m telling you the truth—it’s just heavy right now on me… Do you know what the word “begotten” means? It means reborn. Don’t let anyone deceive you. Jesus was born again.”C. Significance of BegottenBut, does the term “begotten” mean “born-again?” Once again, the answer is no. The term “begotten” in this context simply means “born,” and is in no way synonymous with the word “reborn.” The biblical concept of being “reborn” (cf. John 3:3) applies uniquely to sinful humankind, never to the sinless Son of God. John 1:14specifically refers to Jesus as “the only begotten from the Father” (NASB). Such a person has no need to be born again, for He is, always has been, and ever will be undiminished deity (John 1:1).Where did such a teaching originate? It has no biblical basis. The only conceivable reason for concocting such a belief is to validate the faulty belief that Jesus became a sinner on the cross—and as such had to be born again. IV. ReincarnationKenneth Hagin writes, “Every man who has been born again is an incarnation. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus.”The reincarnation of Christ is arguably the greatest of all atonement atrocities. According to Faith theology, Jesus came in flesh as merely a man. On the cross He was reincarnated as a satanic being. In hell he wasreincarnated once again from demonic to divine. TBN founder Paul Crouch writes, “That is when His divinity returned.” To say that Jesus’ “divinity returned” presumes that there was a point when Christ was no longer God. But such assertion is unbiblical (Philippians 2:6; cf Hebrews 13:8).A. Insurmountable ObstaclesAt least three obstacles invalidate the idea of reincarnation. First, one can only be incarnated if one existed prior to having a body. While preexistence is taught among the cults, it is foreign to the kingdom of Christ.Second, to suggest that we are as much an incarnation as was Jesus is to place humankind on par with God. Third, if “Gods reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself,” we would inhabit a polytheistic planet. B. Error Begets ErrorCreflo Dollar writes, “The day that Jesus was resurrected He became the first begotten Son of God—born again from spiritual death to life.”According to Benny Hinn, “you [in your present incarnation] are a little god …a little messiah walking on earth.”V. The Biblical Definition of the AtonementThe atonement is understood primarily as the vicarious suffering and sacrifice of Jesus that makes salvation for humankind possible. As such, the atonement is primarily soteriological in its intent and scope. A. Biblical BasisThroughout the New Testament, Christ is consistently presented as having borne the sin of humankind on the cross.B. Theological AssessmentThere are several themes upon which the atonement is understood:1) Christ was the perfect sinless sacrifice2) Christ paid the penalty for sin3) Christ established a new covenant4) Christ won the victory over all enemies at the cross, not in hell

Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Dave Dorsey:

Kenyon wrote in the 40s. Hagin wrote starting in 1966, and continued throughout the 70s and 80s. Plenty of people have written at length about their work since then, including Walter Martin, Hank Hanegraaff, Norman Geisler, Gordon Fee, and more. If you want to learn the doctrinal issues with WoF, plenty has already been said and written.

Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  diakoneo:

OTCP that wasn't half bad. You are quite the bumpkin scholar.

Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  bradfreeman: Re: Challenge

My comments were not cut/pasted from another source, D. They were cut/pasted from a document I wrote that involved myriad hours of research. A few questions about some passages:Rom 6:8

Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Mark Ledbetter: Jesus provides some interesting insight:

As Jesus hung on the cross with thieves on either side, one thief made this request, Jesus, remember me when You come in your kingdom! To this request Jesus replied, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luke 23:42-43).Paradise doesn't seem to be a place of torment. I don't see Satan and demons dragging Jesus in to hell, especially when Jesus willing laid down His life for the ransom of men from sin. And, especially when we erroneously see hell as Satan's domain - that comes later when he is judged in Revelation.Death does not necessarily result in immediate judgment of fiery Gehenna.Death results in the descent into Hades/Sheol, the land of the dead without any connotation of torment.However, Hades can be described as being compartmentalized: The rich man went to hades and was tormented by flames, but Lazarus was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom, a metaphor for the the abiding place of the righteous awaiting the resurrection. So, it is possible the connotations of hell can include both a place of torment (fiery Gehenna) and abiding in Paradise/Abraham's bosom until the resurrection God-HonoringChrist-CenteredBible-BasedSpirit-Led

Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  bonnie knox:

Re: Jesus provides some interesting insight:

Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  UncleJD:

Re: Jesus provides some interesting insight:

Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Dave Dorsey:

Brad's appeal to Calvin is in error. He is quoting Institutes II.16.10, in which Calvin is commentating on the Apostles' Creed. A closer reading, specifically of II.16.12, will make it clear that Calvin is not referring to spiritual death in the same way that WoF theology does. II.16.11 brings into proper context Calvin's statement about Christ wrestling with evil in Hell.II.16.8-12 can be read here:www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/christdecended.html

Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Dave Dorsey:

Also, so long as we're appealing to authority (which is not a bad thing), here's Dr. Michael Brown on James White's The Dividing Line, Jan 2, 2018:

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