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Wine or Welch's? Let's do this one more time
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Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Da Sheik: Wine or Welch's? Let's do this one more time
Try, if possible, to lay aside presuppositions, prejudices, and cultural differences. (It's hard to do)I will try to make this as precise and succinct as possible. I believe that when the Bible says that Christ turned the water into wine that it means exactly that. The irony is that when John wrote this, I highly doubt he would have foreseen the debate that surrounds this passage of scripture in a post-prohibitionist America. The fact that the wine would have been aged/fermented would not have been the least bit controversial.Some will say that the Greek word translated wine in English (oinos) doesn't really mean wine. This is intellectually dishonest. You can't have it both ways. When the scripture says in Ephesians be not drunk with wine (oinos), it is doubtful that anyone would suggest Paul is referring to grape juice. But beyond this, let's consider the even bigger picture here. Indulge me for a moment if you would be so kind:John's Gospel is unique. It contains the Prologue. The Genesis of the New Testament. From the first few verses, Jesus is presented as God. Furthermore, it contains the 7 I AM statements. There are also 7 miracles in the Gospel of John. John also gives us a mission statement for why he wrote the Gospel in the first place:Joh 20:30 
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Nature Boy Florida:
Why is there only two choices?Wine or Welch's?Why not door number 3?If we believe there is a heavenly language - why not a heavenly drink? Perhaps it tastes better than any wine - without the inebriating qualities of the earthly fermented stuff?The disciples were often seeing heavenly things and making some type of earthly explanation.Jesus was strongly against fermenting bread (leaven) - why would he be good with fermenting grapes
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  sheepdogandy:
Jesus got folks drunk.Not.Welch's for us.1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.1Th 5:8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.Tit 2:2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience;1Pe 1:13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.Sober! Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Dave Dorsey:
Da Sheik, why'd you go to all that trouble to take a scholarly look at the original language, and do all that excellent exegesis in your post, when you could have just searched your online Bible for the word sober, posted a bunch of single verses ripped from their context, and settled this once and for all?
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  diakoneo:
I prefer Welch's myself. My wife's cousin is very world travelled. He brought us some very fine wine (supposedly) once. It tasted awful to me but I didn't tell him that I suppose the head of the feast would know the difference between wine and grape juice, don't you?? Also having drank some wine already at the feast, he wouldn't lie and say it was the best stuff he had tasted.How many people drink Welch's at a wedding?
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  FLRon:
I have to admit that I have never quite understood why this issue remains so contentious. Is there any other topic that we struggle with accepting that what actually happened, did in fact happen, just as the Bible says?It is my understanding that the Greek word translated wine is oinos, which was the common Greek word for table wine, wine that was fermented. Seems logical to me that if the Lord changed the water into something other than oinos, there surely would have been a different word used.The Greek word (oinos) for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, where Paul warns ‘not to be drunk with wine’.....Obviously, Paul understood that drinking wine in excess would lead to drunkenness because of the presence of alcohol.While I do not drink alcohol nor do I suggest that anyone should, my reasons are strictly based upon the damage I have seen it inflict on friends, family, and society, not because to do so would run afoul of John’s gospel.YMMV, as always “Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  sheepdogandy:
Nothing out of context DD.The Bible says SOBER!Now do you really believe that our Lord Jesus Christ served alcohol to the folks at the wedding feast.Not my Jesus.The ingestion of alcohol affects one's brain.My father died an alcoholic.Jesus did not contribute to his condition Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Da Sheik:
I started this thread due to the other thread lamenting the lack of participation here. I thought a good debate on this first miracle might generate some traffic here. But I also wanted to illustrate a point. We all come to the biblical text with some kind of prejudice or presupposition. Such thinking hinders us from sound exegesis. Even though the scripture tells us that Jesus turned the water into wine, some simply cannot accept it because of bias.
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Link:
Really? The Jews were to abstain from leaven during the week of unleaven bread and Passover season, but otherwise, they were allowed to use leaven. Do you think Jesus only ate crackers all the time while everyone else was eating bread outside of Passover season? Non-fermented grape juice was considered not kosher for Passover. Grape juice had yeast in it. In order to get it out, the wine had to be fully fermented and then the yeast would die. They would then slough the dead yeast off the top. It is only in the 20th century that Jews would accept a processed grape juice (through new technology) as kosher for Passover. Jesus said that the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. All whatsoever they command you observe, that observe and do....What basis is there for thinking that Jesus would have been opposed to 'real wine.' He lived before John Wesley and early Methodist preaching against distilled liquor evolved into preaching against beer, wine, etc. He lived before the temperence movement. The religious thinking for teetotalerism that Holiness, some Baptist, and Pentecostal had against all alcohol consumption hadn't been invented yet
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Cojak:
My Lord simply turned the water to wine. A normal wine, but very good. From my understanding this was NORMAL at a wedding feast. I am sure some drank too much and ate too much, neither good for their health. BUT WE humans do this in celebrations or at homecomings and buffets..Jesus did not announce, 'Y'all just get drunk, if you need more just say so.He in this case neither condoned nor denied the use of wine at dinner he simply did something no one else could do produced a product expected at the occasion..I have no condemnation to those who say it was not wine nor those who say it was wine. I am just 'common sense mined' enough to believe this was a 'very good' wine my Lord miraculously made.As far as a heavenly drink, I would think if that was the case that would have been the BEST miracle and would have been recorded. i.e.Jesus turned the water into a heavenly drink and all were astounded.To the OP, I think it is well written and pretty thorough. Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
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