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FARCE ALERT!!! The Church of God Listening Tour About the Title of Bishop, Women in Ministry, Etc.
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Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Aaron Scott: FARCE ALERT!!! The Church of God Listening Tour About the Title of Bishop, Women in Ministry, Etc.
Has it occurred to anyone else that if Church of God leadership has STEADFASTLY refused to abide by the vote at the General Assembly (i.e., the consistent voting down of woman as bishops, etc.), that any listening tour is a farce? If they were interested in listening, they have had multiple General Assemblies in which the voice of the bishops was made clear by vote. Each time--and under different administrations--Church of God leadership has refused to accept this vote, bringing it back for a vote again and again and again. As best I can tell, they are waiting for the older bishops to die or to become too old to make it to the General Assembly. Then, when the vote finally does pass (as it inevitably must if they bring it up long enough), they likely declare that God's will was done and thank everyone for their vote, etc.
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Mat: So you're saying ...
So you're saying the leadership is by-passing the will of the assembly and playing politics? I thought this Global Listening Tour was discussed at the last assembly, so was it approved, or just proposed in the aftermath of the votes?What would the consequences of leadership doing such an end-run around the assembly be (well perhaps around the General Council)? There seems to be many who would welcome these changes, no matter how they were obtained, while others would accept and carry on in the denomination (the not-my-pay-grade folks). There will be some who are disillusioned, but would continue going through the motions as they looked forward to retirement. A few might take their ministry elsewhere, but that's a hard thing to do. If the top leadership stays united, I don't see a church split where a dynamic leader says he must leave because of the loss of Biblical truths. (Anyway he knows the COG would sue the hell out of him.)While there could be some financial impact resulting from some who have less commitment to COG institutions, the real impact is on the next generation of leaders, the children of those who find themselves on the wrong side of this issue. The rise of the independent church and the desire of young ministers to plant their own churches, perhaps in a city they feel called to or their home town, is growing. If institutional loyalty is damage in the parents, it will be absent in the children. How an institution handles issues today will shape how the next generation views the institution tomorrow. Or as one man said, a person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Quiet Wyatt:
General Overseer Tim Hill has plainly expressed what the Global Ministry Forums are about. Here is what he posted to his Facebook account a few days ago:“WHAT THE GLOBAL OPEN MINISTRY FORUMS ARE “NOT”In a few days, I will travel to California to host the first of twenty-three Global Forums, as mandated by the 77th General Assembly. With a break in the Summer for Camp Meetings and Regional Conventions, the Executive Committee will conclude the final Forum next November. Rather than expect our Church of God constituency to travel to any one place such as Cleveland, Tennessee to communicate ideas about church issues, I’m pleased that representatives from the Executive Committee can travel to twenty-three regions, making discussion and dialogue opportunities more accessible. I will attend and host each of the forums, and to keep travel costs to a minimum, in most locations I will be accompanied by only one Executive Committee Member.The topics of discussion will focus primarily on the four items designated in the adopted measure of the General Assembly. That measure is as follows:That open Ministry Forums be conducted globally to provide opportunity for deliberate and meaningful discussion, dialogue, questions/ answers and time for spiritual insight regarding the importance and understanding of ministry ranks, qualifications, and women in ministry with attention upon the meaning and usage of the title “bishop.” Following the forums, appropriate motion(s) be formulated by the International Executive Council specifically addressing the stated issues and brought to the 2020 International General Council.Again the prescribed discussion items are:1. Understanding Ministry Ranks2. Qualifications of Ministry 3. Women in Ministry 4. The meaning and usage of the title, “Bishop.”To fully understand what the Global Open Forums are, we should begin with an understanding of what the Global Open Forums are not. First, a Global Open Forum is not a Mini-General Assembly.No motions concerning any subject will be formulated, nor decisions adopted in these sessions. While I will personally host and direct the sessions, Roberts Rules of Order will not be used. Obviously, time restrictions will need to be imposed on speeches in order to allow for all to have opportunity to address the topics. Of course, Christian and courteous decorum will be expected of all participants. An explanation of our procedure will be given at the beginning of each session to insure everyone’s understanding of protocol. Second, the Global Ministry Forums are not the Executive Committee’s attempt at persuasion on the topics. As with any topic of discussion, the members of the Executive Committee have opinions and naturally, in most instances, it’s difficult to speak without those opinions coming forth. However, the Global Open Forums are not the EC’s “traveling road show” for the purpose of promoting an agenda. Rather, the forums are your opportunity to “speak into the process” and assist the Executive Council in studying scripture, praying fervently, and offering insight to some questions that have been a concern to the church for a while. My commitment is to host the conversation in such a way as to be fair and respectful to every individual and opinion.At the beginning of each session, I will briefly and concisely present an overview of each stated topic in order to establish the subject and hopefully begin healthy conversation among those participating. Third, the Global Ministry Forums are not a “Cleveland Show and Tell.” I promise you that beyond necessary opening instructions, all of the time allotted to the forums will be spent in hearing from those in attendance. There will be no department promotions or hallway exhibits. The forums are built to be very focused and arranged for leadership to hear from the hearts of our laity and ministers in each location. Fourth, the Global Open Forums will not be the Perfect Format. The Executive Committee has looked at numerous way to carry out the General Assembly-mandated Global Ministry Forums. There is no perfect way to do these and connect with every demographic nuance. None of them will be as long as any of us wish. While we have attempted to provide a broad schedule allowing for maximum participation, we will still miss many who simply can’t adjust their own schedules to attend. We have discussed everything from room logistics to media and technology. We have wrestled with the best locations, starting and ending time, WiFi availability, traffic issues, you name it.Bottom line - the forums are what they are. Pardon me, but this “ain’t” Camp Meeting, Catalyst, an ARC gathering, or anything that will look like Elevation or Hillsong. I’m not preaching, the Youth Choir’s not singing, and the Drama Team isn’t dancing. The forums are solely for the purpose of hearing from our people and collecting thoughts, insights and even data that will assist the Executive Council in its preparation of a General Council agenda for 2020. Finally, the Global Open Forums are not a Waste of Time and Money. While each forum is designed to last for three hours, if those participating so desire and if merited by strong levels of interest, I will certainly allow for more time for discussion. With twenty-three forums, that’s almost 70 hours of crucial discussion that will be hugely beneficial to the process. Possibly the most important aspect of the forums is the survey that will be available. Time will be taken in each forum to complete the survey. However the survey is available online (www.globalministryforums.com) and can be completed at any time. The success of the forums will not be judged by any decisions made at the next General Assembly. The success, or failure, of the forums will be determined twenty-three different times over the next year. If the issues are clearly articulated, if the discussion is free, open and respectful, if iron truly sharpens iron and we walk away not necessarily seeing eye-to-eye, but walking hand-in-hand, then the forums will be successful. If as a host I can insure a “safe” zone of where unhindered and honest dialogue and forward-thinking ideas are welcomed, then the forums will be a success. This is my hope and intent. The General Assembly believed that this process would be the best way to get participation from the widest cross-section of our church. Hopefully, those who cannot attend will be able to participate in the Internet Livestream Forum planned for April 26. I hope that you will take time to attend and participate in the forum nearest you. I’m looking forward to seeing you. God bless,
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Aaron Scott: Mat...
While I know that the side that wants to open every leadership level to women has less Bible than the other side, I also NO LONGER OPPOSE women in leadership levels. I gave my reasons in a long General Assembly-time FB post. In a nutshell, I realize we are never going to go back to the classic Church of God that many of us were raised in. Further, while one side may have more Bible, what we do NOT have is an absolute statement in scripture that women MUST NOT be permitted in leadership. The evidence may lean that way, but it is not a clear statement in scripture, nor should we act like it is. That being the case, I chose to stand-down rather than perhaps hurt feelings over things that are not clear in scripture--besides, I felt the other side had begun to show that they did realize that our side was not just being small-minded, but had sincere scriptural issues.I believe there is little chance of this creating a major (or even a minor) split. I think most of us know that, absent a solid, clear statement in scripture--and not just the preponderance of the evidence--we are not best served by acting like it is an absolute truth. HOWEVER, to me that issue is that the Church of God is purposely designed such that the General Council determines what goes to the General Assembly. Over and over, the General Council's will has been ignored by various administrations by bringing the same (or similar) proposals to the General Assembly time after time. If the General Council's will does not matter, THEN GET RID OF THE GENERAL COUNCIL AND SAVE US ALL A LOT OF NEEDLESS TIME AND ANGST!!!But if it does matter (as every General Overseer will attest), THEN ABIDE BY THEIR DETERMINATIONS!!!At a minimum, no dismissed proposal (or one similar to it) should be permitted to appear on a General Assembly agenda for AT LEAST two General Assembly cycles. But in a rush to push through what the General Council has repeatedly turned down, the Executive level has pushed it at virtually every General Assembly. Apparently, they are waiting for enough of the older men to die off so they can get their way. I cannot otherwise imagine WHY they would continue to add this to the agenda when it has been REPEATEDLY turned down.To me, it shows glaring disrespect for the General Council. I wouldn't doubt there is concern that the newer generation of ministers will take such umbrage that it will hurt the Church of God. That may be the case. Or it may simply be that we elect men to high office who have much different views than we do, but what they DO have is name recognition. If you are very much opposed to women in high office, you will probably not be getting too many invitations to preach camp meetings or conventions, which means you probably won't have the name recognition for high office. If I recall, a number of years ago, a consulting firm cautioned about how the deck can be stacked for or against something.
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Dunamis007: Let's see
1. Understanding the rank and file ministers. How about asking them their opinion once in while. Duh.2. Qualifications of elders/bishops/overseers: Timothy 31 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; note3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; note4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. note7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.3. Women in ministry; Romans 161 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: place2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. place6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.4. Meaning and usage of bishop
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Aaron Scott: Dunamis...
I am for getting rid of bishop, except for those OVER multiple pastors (e.g., District Overseers, State Overseers, General Overseers, and the such). For that matter, I don't mind if they call retired ministers bishops (after all, anyone who has spent their life in the service of God is someone we could rightly call such, I imagine).Also, I am FOR women in ministry. I do feel that it is questionable about placing them in the highest levels of leadership, but as I mentioned elsewhere, I am no longer opposing this.I think my concern is that if we are doing this to match the world's standards of equality, I cannot help but wonder if that same sentiment might lead us down other paths--some of which may be deeply wrong or at least questionable. It's not wrong to want women in leadership, but if the main catalyst is not truly about ministry or the scripture, but is about not looking backward to the world, that's a problem.
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Eddie Robbins:
Thanks for answering the question ...
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Mat:
Thanks for answering the I asked at the beginning of my post.I was thinking these meetings had their genesis at the last COG assembly. I wish I could observe one of the meetings, just to see how leadership manages it. I would like to hear some of the discussion as well.Mat
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Aaron Scott: Eddie...
Yes, it was. But it was also, in my opinion, a cynical maneuver to keep the matter before the General Assembly until the General Council can do the right thing and do exactly what the Executive level wants.But here's the thing, Eddie: WHY DID THE EXECUTIVES ACCEPT THIS AS THE WILL OF THE GENERAL COUNCIL, YET REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE WILL OF THE GENERAL COUNCIL WHEN THEY VOTED DOWN WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP, ETC.?Exactly! Because the Executive, I believe, is willing to do precisely what the General Council calls for...SO LONG AS THE EXECUTIVES AGREE WITH IT!If they truly respected the General Council's voice, this matter would not even have been on the Agenda for discussion, and so would not have morphed into a listening tour.
Author:  acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Nature Boy Florida:
Sorry Aaron.Leadership is guiding your followers to accept what is the right thing - before they know it is the right thing. If they only did what the folks following knew to be right already - why have leaders?While yes the Council voted it down - the same Council has also elected the leaders - who feel they know what is in the best interests of the organization.Tension.All leaders face it.Let's talk about it
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