Acts20.com

When I was in the USN they came up with a program labeled, UP or OUT. That referred to the professional military man either study, work, brown nose but get promoted or get out. I argued the point to no avail.That said, I read posts here on Acts about men coming into states and getting churches that are surplus, self supporting churches while the pastors in that state labor at churches that they support themselves from a secular job.Then some defend the practice of former State overseers and admins 'deserve' the promotion.For many years the COG propagated the practice, climb the ladder, pay your dues, and you will get promoted to a higher paying church. It was common knowledge (Maybe that assumption was wrong but it seemed true) that some churches are held in the larger states for out going State Overseers, and admin personnel.Now that it is impossible to move some pastors without losing a church, the practice seems to be top heavy and no room for promotions.I am aware that a minister should work in the field where he lives, but we are in a MIX now. The pastor that does grow his church but feels his time is over there, cannot find an opening in another field.It is hard to discuss FACTS without someone saying that is CARNAL. Yes it maybe, but it has been a part of the COG for my 80 years of observations. YES i sorta expected promotions in my short ministry stint. funny thing when I finally reached the point I could have been promoted, I quit.The thing that was not expected was men keep on pastoring the larger churches past retirement age, drawing SS and settling until death do us part. and it halts a lot of the climbing the ladder, Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/

Cojak,The up or out thinking goes beyond the military and can be found in the business world as well. A clear message is being sent when you are passed-over for promotions for rank or management advancement. However, it is not universal, as skilled journeyman do not think along these lines, but generally focus on the quality of their work. Does up or out apply to the pastoral ministry? I'm not sure it does. While we may have some self-imposed or denominational imposed metrics, metrics have their limitation. I've looked thought the NT a few times in my life, and have never found any mention of monthly reports, tithing totals, attendance numbers, etc, for local churches or pastors. These are man made in an effort to feed the denominational structure. When you have a traditional line and staff hierarchical denominational structure you create a ladder to climb and positions to obtain. We are moving into an age where the ladder is over its weight limit and the expectations of advancement (up or out) will need reevaluation. As an example, as a pastor I don't want to be supervised by someone who has not been a successful pastor themselves. I don't care what their educational level is, what positions they have held every few years, or what level on the ladder they want to rise to. To me they are a hi-bred, like a mule, useful for some jobs, but they can't reproduce.Some leadership are like second lieutenants (ensigns to you), all school and theory with rank given to them by higher-ups. What do we do with a brand new second lieutenant? We put him out front between us and the enemy. If he is a bad leader he will not survive. If those in front don't get him, those behind will. You can always get another second lieutenant, but the ones who survive learn the value of those they lead. Its the same for people wanting to be denominational leaders, there's always another to fill the slot, but journeymen pastors, their doing the real work.

The idea that a move to a bigger church is a promotion assumes that we all work for the one international corporation. While I understand that the COG is an international organization AND that I hold license with the COG, they do NOT sign my paychecks. If the denomination crumbled tomorrow I would still work for my local church. I don't think he posts here much - if ever - but Jerry Lawson has one of my favorite stories along these lines. Please bear with me if I get some things mistaken...maybe Jerry will jump on and correct them. He went into a small church in rural Alabama with the understanding that if he put in his time there, then he'd get a promotion. Apparently Jerry has not put his time in there yet because he is still there and that small church runs somewhere around 4,000 per weekend I believe. Perhaps our outlook should not be on promotion, but on going to a place where God has directed and making THAT the promotion. Personally, my opinion is that time is not an indicator that a promotion is deserved. If a pastor is in a church for 10 years and it hasn't grown in some dynamic or another, then why give him more? If someone can't effectively pastor 50 people, then why would we assume he'll be more effective with 100? Let's put the pastors in churches 1) as God directs, but 2) *since I am not dumb enough to believe that God directs every pastoral appointment* based on merit. Has a leader proven that he can lead and could take a church to their next level?

We do a great job. Then get promoted. We continue to do a great job. Then move up. It continues until we can't do a job great. Then the climb stops.I have to ask.Is this true in the church as well

I don't know how it is in other states, but in North Georgia, you are lucky to get on the ladder, forget climbing it. There isn't anywhere to climb.I'm not saying that's good or bad, but that is how it is.We don't have a lot of movement within NGA. We did have one, early this year. But that was the first in 2-3 years I think

It seems there is something fundamental wrong with a lack of churches to pastor and an abundance of trained ministers hoping to fill them. Is the local church model and the educational/training model incapable? Are ministers being trained for a position that has few openings? Is the educational/training model focused on the wrong outcomes?In reading statistics from mission countries, the ratio of ministry to churches is very low, yet growth is high. In the US, especially southern states, the same ration is very high, yet growth is low. While an aging and retired population of ministers can account for some of this, it is a problem when you have Bishops on the benches who are not in a pastoral position. Perhaps the educational and credential curriculum is producing well educated Bishop, when what you needed is skilled and gifted church planters. The other option is to get a U-haul truck and point is west or north.

YES! Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/

I posted the 'Climb the Ladder' entry because that is actually the way it was for years. But then, as many people remember, not many pastors were 'allowed' to stay at a church too long, or they might own it. Or, looking back, that seemed to be the idea.Four years was a long stay in the 50-60s with few exceptions. I remember the churches my dad pastored. When they reached the 150 to 250 level it was time to 'birth a church'. My dad and many pastors at the time felt one man could pastor up to 150 in attendance, but after that he was spread too thin. That way there were more congregations that needed a shepherd. Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/

I'm always interested in hearing move stories from older pastors. It's fascinating to me that pastors didn't have to initiate moves. I'm sure opportunities find pastors today. But usually it's the other way around